Monday 9th January Senate Estimates Questions to RRAT about the Hume Circle, Bridge Works, Aquatic Pool
Senator Glenn Sterle, Chair of the Committee 0:24
You are the lucky last and the only one who wants to ask any questions is Senator Pocock.
Senator David Pocock 0:28
Thank you very much, Chair. Thank you for attending so late on Monday night and really looking forward to the upcoming briefing. Sorry we couldn't find a time before estimates, but I've got a few issues I'm keen to ask questions about. So, I’ll try and keep the questions brief. Firstly, on the Hume Circle development, media reports say that the NCA first met with the JEGA consortium in October 2023, and then again on the 11th of December 2024, and then again on the 8th of April 2025. In addition to these three, how many times has the NCA met with JEGA in relation to the development plans for the Hume Circle?
Karen Doran NCA CEO 1:13
I would have to take that on notice, but I can say that those meetings that were cited were with the board. It's not unusual for the board to meet with proponents who are considering development proposals. By the same token, our staff will meet with proponents as well on a potentially a regular basis, particularly as developments are getting more certain, and they're getting close to a works approval stage. It is part of our planning assessment process where we work through a pre-application phase of discussions with proponents on developments.
Senator David Pocock 1:55
In that timeframe, do you also meet with community members? Or is it just with the proponents?
Karen Doran NCA CEO 2:04
We can do. It depends of course on the particular projects and the style of projects. We certainly have formal consultation processes as part of our due process. When we get to those formal stages of a large development, we will have an extended consultation period that will include pop ups and meetings with community groups and a more proactive form of consultation, rather than just a written submission process. And for a project that we know has particular stakeholder impacts, we will reach out and meet with those stakeholders. In fact, on Hume Circle, we did exactly that and reached out to some of the impacted stakeholders around that Precinct.
Senator David Pocock 2:58
Okay, thank you. Maybe I'll notice then how many community stakeholders you've met on the Hume Circle proposal. And how many pop ups have you held for this?
Karen Doran NCA CEO 3:10
For the Hume Circle, none, because the amendment at this stage is not of a level of detail that we consider required. It's a very first stage, high level amendment that's going through at this stage. It has no detail of any particular proposals or developments, and so, other than the reach out that we have made to some of the impacted parties - it wasn't considered that a broader community outreach was required.
Hamid Heydarian, NCA Chief Operating Officer 2 3:51
That's a standard process for any amendment to the National Capital Plan. So we haven't deviated from that in this, and Miss Doran has mentioned this is really only at the infancy stages of proposing an amendment.
Senator David Pocock 4:09
So once it's amended, what's the process there for approval? Is that approval?
Karen Doran NCA CEO 4:13
I suppose, just to add to that, most amendments to the National Capital Plan are setting up details of the regulatory planning framework, so they're essentially amendments to the legislation or the statutory framework. When a development moves into reality, it steps into the assessment phase and then becomes part of a regulatory works approval assessment process. And that's the stage where there is a lot more detail around the aspects of the proposal, and the stage at which we would have a more comprehensive consultation process with the community.
Senator David Pocock 5:03
What would the approvals process be after the Territory Plan was amended, if the National Capital Plan was amended?
Karen Doran NCA CEO 5:11
If you're asking the process for the amendment itself, it's gone out.
Senator David Pocock 5:14
So once that's done?
Karen Doran NCA CEO 5:15
So if the amendment is approved by the Minister, so it'll be a ministerial approval at the end of the day, that changes the National Capital Plan to put in place the Hume Circle Precinct as a designated area for which The National Capital Authority is then the regulatory body. Going forward from there, if a developer wanted to come forward with a proposal in that Precinct, the first step in that process would be for them to come forward with what are called detailed conditions of Planning, Design and Development. Now that's not the work’s approval stage, so we're not into the regulatory process yet. It's a stage where we ask developers to bring forward the details of their proposal. That's the stage at which we would consult with the community. It's a stage where you would get the sorts of details around intended land use, the building, sort of layout, building height, building mass, the landscape, the public realm, the street configuration. It's all of that. And it's almost like a master plan for whatever area of land they're looking to develop.
Senator David Pocock 6:45
So there would need to be another consultation?
Karen Doran NCA CEO 6:49
The amendment we're putting through now requires that stage as a separate approval and a process that requires consultation as part of that process, and that's before you can bring forward a work's approval.
Senator David Pocock 7:07
I've had concerns raised with me that the consultation for the current stage that you're going through was over Christmas, New Year, a lot of people are busy, and I know that the inner South Community Councils asked for consultations to be extended until their scheduled meeting on the 23rd of February. And I'm wondering what's happening with the extension and why would you have a consultation period over Christmas and New Year?
Karen Doran NCA CEO 7:39
It wasn't over Christmas. It started on the fifth of January. We have a board meeting in about the middle of December. So it was just a consequence of the timing of our work programs. We did intentionally hold it until in the new year, rather than releasing it prior to Christmas, which we were in a position to do.
The four week original consultation period is our standard period on this type of an amendment. We have extended that period though for another two weeks in response to community concerns. The inner South Community Council has a meeting on the 23rd of February, which we've agreed to go along to and present to their broader membership. And if there are any issues that come out of that meeting, we'd certainly be open to taking those issues into the consultation process.
Senator David Pocock 8:45
And are you going to hold a public meeting?
Karen Doran NCA CEO 8:49
Their meeting is a public meeting for members in that number of council areas. So to that extent, we'll be leveraging that public meeting. Again, it wasn't our engagement approach for this style of amendment to have a more public meeting process. It's a public consultation. It's open to everyone. But it wasn't one where we introduced a public meeting as such.
Senator David Pocock 9:20
And will the proponent be there to answer questions as well?
Karen Doran NCA CEO 9:24
No, the amendment that's going forward does not touch on the details of any proposal, and that proposal hasn't been put forward in any formal way to the NCA.
Senator David Pocock 9:38
But this amendment is only because you have had a proponent say, “we want to do this”.
Karen Doran NCA CEO 9:43
No, I don't think that's the case.
Senator David Pocock 9:45
So it’s just a coincidence?
Karen Doran NCA CEO 9:46
The NCA has considered this form of proposal, the idea of the Hume Circle Precinct, as early as 2020, which precedes the proponents proposal. In fact, you might say that it was that early consideration that led to the proponent considering their proposal. It's also been part of the ACT government's considerations in their East Lake place plan and in their Territory plan and district strategy amendments. This area has been highlighted as an area ready for urban development. So I think these things are never one thing comes first and the other, they often feed off each other.
Senator David Pocock 10:41
I guess my concern is there's a lot of Canberran’s, myself included, who want good densification. I think that takes community buy-in and proper consultation, and actually showing the vision of what you want to do. The feedback I've received is that this process hasn't really allowed that. And while I accept that there's multiple stages to the approval of a densification of the Hume Circle, and there are proposed fifteen storey buildings for people in the community, that it kind of feels like it's moving pretty quick.
Karen Doran NCA CEO 11:20
I can say those objectives are the same objectives the NCA has. This first amendment is really to bring this Precinct into the NCA’s regulatory authority, so that we and developers have certainty of what planning framework they're working in. The detail that you've mentioned, and that the community is rightly looking for will definitely be available at the next stages of consultation.
Senator David Pocock 11:50
In the past, the Fyshwick Business Association has put forward the Eastward Green Line proposal. That was just dismissed out of hand by the Barr government. Have you seen that proposal for densification on the rail corridor?
Karen Doran NCA CEO 12:06
I won't say in detail. I am familiar with it, and yes, it was one that was presented to the ACT government.
Senator David Pocock 12:16
But that's on ACT land, so it's nothing to do with the NCA.
Some questions on the bridge. Anyone who travels to Parliament House would know about the bridge works, and commute times have really blown out. Can you give us a quick update on where things are up to? Definitely nothing happening underneath the bridge. But what's, what's the latest?
Karen Doran NCA CEO 12:45
There are, in fact, things happening underneath the bridge. So the bridge has now moved into the first stage of the major construction works. So just before Christmas, we completed the preliminary works, which were the building of the crossover lanes, which allowed the switching of the traffic from one span of the bridge to the other.
On the 8th or 9th of January, we actually closed the northbound span of the bridge and had all of the traffic flowing over the southbound span. That transition went relatively smoothly during the month of January. Being a quieter period in Canberra, it allowed commuters, I think, to get used to the new traffic arrangements from our monitoring, and we are monitoring this very closely, and with the support of ACT government, the delays haven't been extensive. The traffic has flowed pretty smoothly. We certainly have peak hour peaks. We have a very concentrated period of peak traffic across the bridge. We're conscious that we're only in the early weeks of sort of full return of traffic and schools and workers. So we're continuing to monitor that experience and behavioral response.
The new traffic arrangements that work on the span of the bridge is expected to take up to 12 months, weather permitting, but it's progressing well already on that closed northbound span. We have barges in place now underneath one of the piers, and that's the first stage of the work is to actually lift the deck of the bridge off the piers and replace the bearers that are structurally supporting it. We've also seen some early works on the deck of the bridge where they're starting to cut the holes and actually access the internals of that deck and prepare for the structural reinforcement that has to happen there.
Senator David Pocock 15:21
So based on the start and what's happened, it's still on track for the two years and the one year for each span?
Karen Doran NCA CEO 15:32
Yes, we're certainly on track for that at the moment.
Senator David Pocock 15:36
Just finally, I was keen to ask some questions about the Commonwealth Park swimming facility without the dive pool, and to really ask about the dive pool. I understand from the Chief Minister's statement in the ACT Legislative Assembly that the NCA approached the ACT government with the proposal to really head the civic pool to Commonwealth Park. Is that correct?
Karen Doran NCA CEO 16:07
Again, I think it was more a collaborative process. I think the ACT government was looking at what they might do with the Civic pool, which was aged and had some maintenance issues. We were looking at a concept vision for Commonwealth Park more broadly, and how it might serve the community going forward. In that piece of work, the potential for an aquatic center in Commonwealth Park was considered, and was proposed.
Senator David Pocock 16:47
So did the NCA approach the ACT government about that? or was the sequencing there?
Karen Doran NCA CEO 16:51
I couldn't say what the sequencing was.
Senator David Pocock 16:55
On notice, if you could look at how that actually happened. How the NCA potentially reached out? That was the chief minister's words.
I'm interested at the time, given people have been talking about diving facilities in the ACT for many years now - Was that part of discussion? and if not, why was that not raised?
Karen Doran NCA CEO 17:23
No, as far as I'm aware, there were no detailed discussions around what the ACT government was planning to do in terms of their aquatic facilities, nor what a potential aquatic facility in Commonwealth Park would actually include, by way of its components.
So I think the discussions around the dive pool, more specifically, have come out as the proposals for what the new aquatic center might be have been consulted with industry. I do know that, as the ACT has been doing their site investigations on the proposed site in Commonwealth Park, the ability to go as deep as would be necessary to service a full 10 meter dive board dive facility doesn't seem to be feasible in that area.
Senator David Pocock 18:20
What's down there, what's stopping?
Karen Doran NCA CEO 18:24
It is a fairly rocky area, and it's also got a water table being on the shores of the lake, that you would hit at a certain depth.
Senator David Pocock 18:36
Okay, I thought it was proposed for being up on the carparks there, up the hill a bit?
Karen Doran NCA CEO 18:44
It is. That's the area that will be built on. I think a dive pool needs to go five or six metres deep.
Senator David Pocock 18:55
The carpark has to be more than five meters above the lake.
Like, I'm sorry. I just doubt how much they've actually looked into this and if digging through rock is the problem, well I’m sure we've got some Canberra contractors who can do that.
We heard from the department earlier that they had talked about a like-for-like; Civic to Commonwealth Park aquatic facility. And we Canberrans hear that they assume, like, as in, like everything that's going to be there for, like not just a 50 meter pool. And so how come this hasn't come up in discussions?
Karen Doran NCA CEO 19:34
Well, I'm not sure that it was a like for like discussion. I'm not aware of a specific like-for-like discussion. So I would have to take that on notice.
Senator David Pocock 19:40
Take that on notice.
Hamid Heydarian, NCA Chief Operating Officer 19:46
If I can add, if I may add one slight bit of context here. The point that Miss Doran is making, when the NCA went out at the time to consult on the concept vision for the Commonwealth Park, the position of the pool, the picture of the pool was a placeholder… pool here potentially. It didn’t provide any details as to look, feel, shape or anything. So those discussions hadn’t taken place. It was really just at the very early stages of whether it is possible or whether that location could be used. So there was no consideration given to the shape or form of it.
Senator David Pocock 20:30
Sure. Last two questions.
Hamid Heydarian, NCA Chief Operating Officer 20:32
Chair. Just a correction. Senator Pocock.. I’ve just been advised that the department didn't say like-for-like. I'm just wondering if, if we can have that clarified.
Senator David Pocock 20:42
Where did you get that from?
Hamid Heydarian, NCA Chief Operating Officer 20:45
I've just been advised.
Senator David Pocock 20:48
Okay, happy to. I know Minister Barry said like-for-like , and we were talking about like-for-like earlier, but I'm happy if the department will know better than me on this one.
Last two questions. You've mentioned that in your considerations, you wanted to ensure that the Commonwealth Park was serving the community. So did you undertake any work to find out what Canberrans would want from an aquatic facility?
Karen Doran NCA CEO 21:16
So the Commonwealth Park concept vision was the product where we canvas the community broadly about what they would want from Commonwealth Park. Our objective was to one respond to the community, but also preserve the original intent of the park, which is as a recreational and a landscape park in the center of the city.
The potential initiative of an aquatic center in Commonwealth Park was certainly in the concept vision. It was very clearly illustrated there as a possible option. In the comments that we got back from the community around the concept vision… when it went to the aquatic facility as a concept, they were largely positive in terms of it being located there. Some comments around accessibility and the need to consider transport, etc.
There was a group who commented specifically on, if there's an aquatic center there, they would like it to provide these certain facilities, a 50 Lane competition level pool, dive facility, etc. All of those comments were passed onto ACT Government, as the ACT government is the body responsible now for taking the project forward.
Senator David Pocock 22:50
Last question, at any point, has the ACT government approached the NCA to get advice on height restrictions with a diving platform? and whether that would fit within the National Capital Plan?
Karen Doran NCA CEO 23:10
Not specifically on the diving platform, but as part of our process of working through any proposal. We're working with ACT government as they're developing the early design for the Aquatic Center. Certainly, height is one of the issues that would be considered in that, as will be integration into the landscape, as will be impacts on heritage issues around the Parliament House vista. So all of those matters, we are in open dialogue at the moment as their plans, which are only at an early stage, are evolving.
Senator David Pocock 23:56
But they've never said to you, how would a dive tower fit in there?
Karen Doran NCA CEO 24:00
Not specifically. But of course, a dive tower at 10 meters comes at quite a height. So not only the depth of the pool, but the height of the tower would have to be a consideration. But I think that the depth issue has kind of discounted it before we got to the second matter.
Senator David Pocock 24:20
You'd think if at five meters, you're hitting the lake, you had 10 meters on that, that can't be anywhere near Parliament house's height. So I wouldn't have thought it would be an issue, but we can ask them, some people who are good at their heights.
Karen Doran NCA CEO 24:35
That's right where you're starting from.
Senator David Pocock 24:38
Thank you.