Interview with Saskia Mabin about the Federal Government's Combatting AntiSemitism, Hate and Extremism (Criminal and migration laws) Bill 2026 as well as Combatting Antisemitism, Hate and Extremism (Firearms and Customs Laws) Bill 2026

Saskia Mabin: First of all, well done rallying to do this so quickly. You spent the weekend getting close to 1,000 responses. What were people telling you?

Senator David Pocock: Saskia, before we get into that, can I just start by sharing my condolences to the families of the two young Canberran's who we saw in the news, the four year old and the teenager who died yesterday in separate incidents, and send my deepest sympathies to their families and friends. I know a lot of Canberran's will be thinking about them.

Onto these bills. I guess, the context of it is the Prime Minister has set up a political wedge, and it seems to have worked. Firearms changes will go through with the support of the Greens, and now we're learning that the hate speech and migration changes with support by the Coalition tonight, but I really don't think Australians will be the winners from this. 

It is so clear from the community consultation I've been able to do, as you said, 1000 survey responses, yesterday I held three separate Roundtables. We've had hundreds more calls and emails from Canberran's, thousands of emails from Australians around the country. 

And the message is that people want to see action, but they don't want us to rush this and get it wrong. This is too important. 

And I think one of the things that is so clear from the correspondence I've been receiving from the survey and from the Roundtables yesterday, is that it's not just broken promises that affect trust in politicians and government, but it's also bad process, and that undermines people's trust in politicians and political process. 

And I think that's very dangerous at a time where we should, as a Parliament, as elected representatives, be doing everything we can to actually strengthen trust in elected representatives in our Parliamentary process. And so this whole process stinks. The government is expecting me to vote on behalf of Canberran's at 10 o'clock tonight on a bill that will make very significant changes to hate speech and migration laws, and I haven't even received the final copy of that bill yet.

Saskia Mabin: Really, when are you expecting to get that?

Senator David Pocock: Well, who knows. We've been asking. We've been asking for it again and again. It seems like they haven't even finalised it. This is not the way to make good laws, and I think Canberran's will be really disappointed that the major parties haven't properly consulted with them or listened to their concerns. 

And I'm really concerned at a time where people do want action, they do want communities across this country to be safe, they want to see a response to deal with antisemitism in this country. There is strong support for sensible firearms reform. But because the Albanese Government and now the Parliament is in such an incredible rush to do it in the space of an afternoon in the Senate, I think we're in a situation where we're going to see unintended consequences, and we're going to see an erosion of trust in the political process.

Saskia Mabin: One of our texters says “here, here to Pocock on saying it's too important to get it wrong, don't rush the legislation”. Let's break it down then. So let's focus first on the hate speech laws. The way that they look at the moment focuses on banning hateful groups and giving the government greater ability to cancel the visas of people they believe are spreading hate.

This is a watered down version of what was initially proposed. The racial vilification aspect of this bill was scrapped over the weekend. It had received criticism from both the left and the right. What did Canberran's tell you about how they felt about the Hate Speech laws?

Senator David Pocock: The two major areas of concerns were about how this would impinge on legitimate freedom of expression, and especially in a country where we don't have a federal Human Rights Act and where people's right to freedom of expression isn't actually enshrined in law. The Parliament has to tread very carefully in this area. So that was one thing that came through very clearly. 

The other concern was people saying; if you're going to tighten up Hate Speech laws, this has to extend to other groups with protected attributes. You can't create a two tier system of protections and potentially put further stress on social cohesion, where people say… Hang on, I face discrimination as well. How come I'm not protected? 

So, those were the two main things, but there are a lot of concerns raised, and that came through loud and clear through the Roundtables yesterday where people were saying; these are important conversations, but the way that the Parliament is doing this is eroding trust. 

We needed to bring back Parliament to make a start, but we need more time to get it right, and that's why I was calling for Parliament to get to come back early, was to actually have a look at what the government's proposing and then say, let's have a few weeks of a Senate inquiry, let's get experts to give their their opinion, and let's actually see what we can agree on and move forward as a Parliament. 

But it's all been political. It's just all been about politics in here, not actually about good outcomes for communities that we're meant to be in here to represent, and ultimately, what's good for the country.

Saskia Mabin: Do you think the Prime Minister was somewhat placed in a corner? There was a lot of criticism early on from the opposition that he wasn't doing enough fast enough, hence this bill, and then there's been obviously a lot of fallout from that, and a tussle over how best to legislate these things, but, but it almost seemed like a slightly impossible situation for the government to get it right. 

Senator David Pocock: Well, I think with a little bit more consultation and with an approach where you actually say everyone can agree that there is a problem, let's work together on what we can agree on. That wasn't the case. I think there were very legitimate criticisms about the lack of action. 

If you look at the Jewish community here in the ACT, they've been calling for security upgrades for some time. In December, I wrote to the Home Affairs Minister asking for funding for those upgrades. They still haven't even heard back. And you'd think in terms of urgency, those are the sorts of things that are incredibly urgent to actually provide that peace of mind. 

And in the face of a very legitimate threat, when it comes to what broad legislation that will change hate speech, it will introduce a whole bunch of things. Some of the provisions actually upend the way that we view criminal law in this country. There's provisions where you're essentially guilty until you can prove yourself innocent, and that is deeply problematic, and it's even more problematic if there isn't actual scrutiny. 

And one of the things that came through in the submissions, reminding people that there were two half days worth of hearings and three days for people to make submissions, was legal experts saying, we just don't have time to suggest how this can be improved. So, yes, the government was in a tight spot. 

But I think the one of the things that has made the Prime Minister so successful is that he views everything through a political lens, and he's able to wedge people and wedge opponents and do that really well. I think in this instance, he hasn't been able to actually say, what's good for the country here and how do we actually move forward and create a lot more support than the Parliament. 

Saskia Mabin: You're hearing from Independent Senator for the ACT, David Pocock, on the second day of this emergency sitting. He's joining us from Parliament House ahead of what will probably be quite a long day. 

Let's talk about the new Gun laws. They would establish the biggest buyback since the Port Arthur massacre. They would toughen rules and penalties for gun importations and more. Senator, how did Canberran’s feel about tougher gun control?

Senator David Pocock: I think there's very strong support for much of what's in this legislation, noting that regulation of firearms occurs at a state and territory level. The federal government has a role to play when it comes to ensuring that intelligence is shared between agencies like ASIO and the AFP and state and territory police. Things like import restrictions and coordinating gun buybacks. So there's elements of that in here.

I held a couple of Roundtables yesterday on this, and concerns were raised by everyone about potential unintended consequences of the bill, given it has been so quickly drafted and is being rammed through the Parliament. Gun control advocates would like more time to actually ensure that this is watertight, that it's actually going to improve things. 

And then obviously people who are in the veterans community and in the shooting community, are really concerned about things like a lack of procedural fairness in the elements of the bill, and uncertainty around definitions such as, firearms and explosive manufacturing material. What does that actually cover? And it's very hard to get answers out of the Government. And in fact, the way that today is structured, there will likely be no time at all to ask questions in the Senate about these bills. 

So it's clear that there's strong support amongst Canberran's for regulations of firearms, but I'm concerned that in the push to rush these changes through, we've created a space for misinformation, and that that damages public trust, because people who are farmers here in the ACT and across the country, other people who have a legitimate reason to use a firearm, feel under attack and are very unsure at what these what these laws are and aren’t going to do.

Saskia Mabin: I'm sensing a lot of frustration at how quickly this is all happening, and the position that you've been placed in needing to make a pretty quick decision on something that you would rather have more time to think about. Given the Roundtables and the survey and your conversations with Canberran’s over the weekend, how well prepared do you feel going into today?

Senator David Pocock: I don't think this is how a democracy should function. This is not how we should make important laws. There is time to actually have a few weeks to look at this and to deal with this in February or March. The position I've been put in, we received the gun control part of the bill that's been split off, I think, at just after seven o'clock this morning. So my team is going through that at the moment. As I said, we still haven't received the Hate Speech and Migration Changes Bill. 

When I vote in the Senate, that's not my vote as a Senator for the ACT. I'm voting on behalf of people in the ACT, that's something I take seriously, and I strongly disagree with the speed at which the government is doing this and the lack of clarity and consultation. So I will do my best to get across the bills this morning. I’ve consulted with a community survey, I've heard from a huge number of Canberran's, I’ve held Roundtables and will ultimately decide what I do based on feedback I've received. 

It is incredibly hard to vote for these Hate Speech laws. I think there's just too many question marks over how far reaching they are, how they're actually going to work, and whether they're actually going to deal with the root causes and the problems that we're facing. On the firearms bill, slightly different, because this is largely a state and territory issue, but as I said, still concerned about some of the details of that. 

One example on the gun buyback is that gun control advocates and people in the shooting community have raised the fact that if you have a buyback scheme where you're buying back firearms but not ammunition, what happens to the ammunition that's out there? It doesn't just disappear. And these are the sorts of things that we should be working at. 

If the government and the community decides that we want a gun buyback scheme in this country, then let's do it in a way that is actually going to work. And if we do that today, or if we do that in a month's time, and it is a better piece of legislation. I think everyone would say you should be doing that in February or March.

Saskia Mabin: So have you decided how you will vote on the Gun laws? 

Senator David Pocock: As I said, my team is busy looking through and seeing what's changed since the exposure draft last week, and we'll have to come to a decision today. 

Saskia Mabin: Okay we'll be watching David Pocock, thank you so much for your time this morning. 

Senator David Pocock: Thank you very much. Saskia, cheers,